AND SOME IDIOT JUDGE GAVE IT TO THEM.
This family is not persecuted.
Getting fines for BREAKING THE LAW is fully normal and acceptable.
Getting other consequences FOR BREAKING THE LAW, as defined by the said law, which in this case means taking over the custody of the children, as the parents are, in fact, denying them their rights.
What they are trying to present as religious persecution is in fact being treated like everyone else in the country.
"In the last two decades the socialist governments in Europe are trying a different approach: While Christian worship on Sunday morning is kept legal, any practices for the rest of the week that are based on the convictions of Bible-believing Christians and the Biblical worldview are declared against the law. The laws in most European countries in essence are designed to extinguish any Christian practice while de jure allow Christian worship in designated places.
Prime examples of this, of course, are the laws in quite a few European countries against Christian homeschooling. Christian homeschooling, note that, because Muslim or any other form of homeschooling, or even unschooling is left alone. The situation with the legal persecution against Christian homeschooling families in Germany is all too well known to most American Christian families thanks to the decision of the Tennessee Judge Lawrence O. Burman to grant asylum to the Romeike family earlier this year for the violation of their rights to homeschool their children by the German government. Less known are the laws in other European countries like Sweden and France, where homeschooling is forbidden by law. In many places in Europe it is against the law to act as a Christian in your everyday life, and that includes also the economic and political life of the nation."
- Missionaries and the theology of resistance
That is not true. People are totally free to go to church at any day they so wish. Bible study groups and Christian communities have frequent meetings that are not disturbed or hindered in any way or manner. Churches have meeting rooms, day care, children's and teen's clubs and other activities during the week, and Germany has a full freedom of religion. Everyone is allowed to practice their religion as they wish AS LONG AS THEY FOLLOW THE LAW, which means that I can't see any problems with "living as a Christian". On the contrary.
It is very much easier to live a practical Christian life in Europe than any other sort of religious life.
The Jews, Muslims and Pagans are very much more persecuted and hindered to live their lives as their conscience demands, and in many cases even TRULY persecuted. Churches, Christian meeting spaces and cemeteries are very seldom if ever attacked and vandalized, whereas the Jewish, Moslem and Pagan such are constantly being disturbed. Especially the Jewish ones. It is so common, people don't even much react, just sigh and clean it up.
Germany has freedom of expression, press and right of assembly. There are laws against hate speech that are stricter than in USA, but I can't imagine any Christian publication being censored. Now, of course, if it is hate speech disguised as Christianity, that's a different issue, but I HOPE any Christian would consider hate speech very un-Christian, and would not protest the limitation of such. Christian publications are not censored, and the writers may freely express their disliking of such subjects like New Age or Islam or Atheism.
"“Because Germany banned individual liberty for everyone, it’s okay. . . . [So by extension] it’s okay to repress everyone’s freedom of religion, which is to say it would be okay to repress everyone’s freedom of speech, to repress everyone’s freedom of parents. All those things are implicated in the right to educate.”"They haven't banned individual liberty from anyone. There is no such thing as "freedom of parents" or "[parents'] fundamental right to decide how [they] want to teach [their] children". Naturally, parents have rights and responsibilities, but the state's responsibilities for the children outweigh the parent's rights. I know this is hard for some people to accept, practically impossible, but this is the reality and the way it is.
- Michael Farris, founding chairman of HSLDA
I do hope no-one has any objections to when this illusional "parent's right" is being surpassed because the parents let the children starve, abuse them, molest them - but to the state all the parents are equal. It doesn't matter if all your friends think you are a perfect parent, it doesn't matter if your Holy Book or God says you are doing right, the state MUST interfere if you are denying your child any of the "Children's Rights".
(Now... USA has not ratified the Convention of the Rights of Children... why is that? Could it possibly be because you believe the parents have more rights than the children, and children in fact BELONG to their parents? You're wrong, you know. And one day your children will know it, too...)
Now, home-schooling has been illegal in Germany since 1918. Any form of homeschooling. Muslims are not allowed to homeschool either, nor any other group of people. Homeschool is illegal. Period.
Christians are not singled out in some war against Christianity. I don't even know where the idea of that "it is against the law to act as a Christian in your everyday life" comes from. (Perhaps the reason is that the author is Hungarian, and as Hungary was Communist, Christianity WAS forbidden. I can only assume he is referring to that reality, which is the COMMUNIST reality, NOT EUROPEAN.)
No, these people are not persecuted. They are trying to demand "rights" that are against the law of the country they live in, and when this request is denied - naturally - IT IS AGAINST THE LAW - they start whining about being persecuted and requesting asylum!
THESE PEOPLE REFUSE TO FOLLOW THE LAW!
I don't understand which part of this is so difficult for the thousands of idiots, defending this family, to understand. I'm pretty sure most of them would scream against "illegal immigrants", who, of course, are all Mexican, or thereabout. Hello! THIS FAMILY IS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! They were requesting asylum for wrong reasons, and they were granted the asylum by wrong reasons, they are in USA ILLEGALLY.
The worst thing with this is that because some idiot (that would be HSLDA attorney Mike Donnelly) told them to request asylum, they probably are no longer welcome as ORDINARY IMMIGRANTS to USA.
They should have requested a visa and green card to move to USA. They should have immigrated to USA legally. All their thousands of homeschooling, Christian, USonian friends should have guaranteed them work and housing, so that the government would have had no problems what so ever to welcome this German family to USA, and then in couple of years, they could have applied for citizenship.
But NOW they are criminals. Violating BOTH the German law AND the USonian law.
Homeschooling is not illegal in USA, but immigrating under false premises is.
That the US law is different from German law is totally irrelevant. This family is German and subjects to the German law, not the US law, even though they at the moment reside in USA. (Illegally, I might add.)
That a person can get an adequate education at home, and these parents were not denying their children education, is 100% irrelevant. Homeschooling is still illegal in Germany.
Homeschooling is NOT a human right, education is, and Germany gives an adequate education to all German children in public schools.
I think I should add that there are Christian public schools in Germany too, if the regular curriculum doesn't agree with your preferences and values.
Also, nothing stops you from providing ADDITIONAL education at home to your children.
Nothing stops you from requesting special license to skip the sexual education (which is really only a couple of hours, if even that, of the whole 10 years of public school.). I haven't heard that anyone had had any problems with this.
Nothing stops you from reviewing the material, and going through it with your children and explaining to them how it differs from what you believe, and teach your children those things as you believe them.
You can request that your children are not to read certain books; that they are allowed to choose something else they read.
You do have quite a lot of control about how and what your child is being taught, even when you don't homeschool.
So, no, this German family - or others like this one - has no case. They are just being obstinate, for no good reason.
Especially remembering what the Bible says about this issue...
Romans 13:1-5
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. "
Titus 3:1
"Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work"It doesn't matter what their personal preferences are. It doesn't matter if the law somewhere else is different. It doesn't matter they would like it to be differently. Homeschooling is illegal in Germany, that is the law, and it is to be respected.
1 Peter 2:13-17
"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."
"The German Supreme Court has ruled that it wants to 'counteract the development of religious and philosophically motivated parallel societies,' Farris explained. 'And that's a direct quote.'"
Yes? Of course you find it horrible, because you are thinking that they are targeting Christians. What they are targeting is actually groups like Nazis and Nation of Islam. "Parallel society" is underground movement, terrorists, saboteurs, revolutionaries, people who refuse to follow the law of the country. Does that sound like Christians to you?
What was it the Bible said about respecting the laws of the people one lives among?
Are you really trying to tell me you SUPPORT insubordination? And not only SUPPORT, YOU ENCOURAGE IT!
If Germany was demanding the Christians to denounce Jesus and worship Asir or bring sacrifice to the World Tree, then I would understand why you would protest.
If Germany demanding abortion and forced the children to have sex in school, I would understand.
This I do not understand.
Another thing I noticed in several of these sites trying to talk for this family staying in USA is that this public education law was created by Nazi government so that children could be easier brainwashed.
This law of general and equal public education was signed 1918. Germany was not Nazi 1918. The National socialistic party didn't even exist at that time!
The thing, that is more important here, is that to refer to the Nazi Germany is "playing the Nazi card". It is bad argumentation, fallacious logic AND A PERSONAL ATTACK.
And what does the Bible say about that?
Nevertheless, it is 100% irrelevant why, when and by whom this law was signed, it is still the law and if you refuse to follow the law, you are a criminal.
Romans 1:29-30
"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents"
Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Read this too.
Why HSLDA is Wrong about Romeike v. Holder
"But the case goes far deeper than the right of asylum. Homeschooling is providing an increasingly viable alternative as the ranks of adults with college education increases, the quality of public schools drops or stagnates, and the refusal of government schools to offer any sort of values education. The number of homeschooled students has risen from 1.5 million in 2007 to over 2 million in 2012 and is growing ever more rapidly"
- Dick Morris
Irrelevant.
It doesn't matter at all, that less than 2% of USonian children are being homeschooled, and the USonian public schools are not very good. It has nothing to do with the education in Germany, nor the FACT THAT HOMESCHOOLING IS ILLEGAL IN GERMANY.
You decide about the laws IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY, and let the other countries decide over their business.
Considering that Germany has better schools than USA, and more effective education. USA really has very little to say about how we deal with education here in Europe. Perhaps to countries like Greece or Slovenia, but we North Europeans are a lot better than you are in this.
(And, yes, one reason for that is an equal and general education. I bet your homeschooled kids do well in Bible knowledge, but if they know as much as the adults do, I have to say that it's not much. I, a Pagan, know the Bible better than any of the Christians I have discussed.)
US 17th In Global Education Ranking; Finland, South Korea Claim Top Spots
And isn't there some idiot blaming Obama and feminism for this!
"Education is at the bottom in Obama's Matriarchal America. The usa spends lots of money on vocational training. Also many americans view education simply as a means to a "better job". There is little interest in engaging education to help further humanity or to cultivate critical thinking and analysis. in addition, many people are bragging about the 'female boom' in college attendance and graduation. Though at the expense of males who are deliberately being passed over by university admissions offices. I find it ironic that with the increase of female college graduates. The standards continue to fall and the usa's ranking plummets as well. So interesting. I wonder what kind of society these people believe will come from a population in which the females are 'educated', yet the males are not. Seems like the making of civil war and perhaps even a real gender war. Such interesting times we live in indeed."
THIS WAS VOTED AS "BEST" OF THE OTHER USERS!
10 comments:
Yes. These same people think that illegal aliens are responsible for our bad economy. They also believe in racial profiling. They take a hard stance on immigration...Oh, except for this nice Christian family who have been persecuted by the big bad Germans. We can let them stay, can't we?
They will complain that Mexicans are lazy, leeches. Excuse, me? They come to this country because they want to work and they do work. They take the shitty jobs that Americans think are "below" them to do, and they do them for below minimum wage. Then, they send their money home to their families, as opposed to buying iphones and designer clothes like the Americans. Christian fundamentalists have proven in every situation to be hypocrites.
Wow. I don't think I could disagree with you more.
I presume in this subject we are very opposite :-)
I would like to know which part specifically you are objecting to, or if it's more about the family - or perhaps you are disagreeing with Griffox?
For many reasons, I believe they should be allowed to remain. I have taught at the College and University level for 21 years and have seen the products of the problems in our public education system. Homeschooling is not for everyone but has been marvelous for our family; I am grateful to have the option to homeschool. I would wish the same for this family from Germany. We are and have been since our inception, a nation of immigrants, for better or worse (but mostly for the better).I was born and raised in Florida where much of our population was comprised of people from EVERYWHERE. So, why not allow this family to remain? Our President seems to be a champion of immigrants, but appears determined to personally escort this family out of the country. Griffox is certainly entitled to his/her opinion, but perhaps we are not all in every situation hypocrits. Thanks for providing this venue to express our opinions.
Thank YOU for taking the venue and expressing your opinion. I really appreciate it.
I know I can be very hard when I express mine, but I hope I am not unreasonable or intimidating :-)
One can't really compare the American education to the German education.
I am in no way against homeschooling. It would have been a LOT better for me. But that is not the issue with this case. In Germany homeschooling is illegal. It doesn't matter if it's legal in USA or in several other European countries, and it doesn't matter what benefits it has compared to the public schooling. Germany has its reasons to the laws Germany has, and hopefully this law will change in the future. That is up to the German people. Not the American.
"We are and have been since our inception, a nation of immigrants, for better or worse (but mostly for the better). I was born and raised in Florida where much of our population was comprised of people from EVERYWHERE. So, why not allow this family to remain?"
Because they didn't come as immigrants. They came as asylum seekers, asking for protection against persecution... and that persecution doesn't exist.
This is so lamentable!
I see no reason why they wouldn't have been welcomed to USA as ordinary immigrants! But after all this, I fear the HSLDA has made it really, really difficult, if not impossible, for the family to immigrate to USA legally. To me this seems like someone(s) saw a chance to throw more mud on the President, and they took it, without thinking one bit about the consequences to the people involved.
I believe the President has a lot more, and more important things in his mind, than this German family trying to flee the consequences of breaking the German laws.
"Griffox is certainly entitled to his/her opinion, but perhaps we are not all in every situation hypocrites."
I don't agree with him, but he has his experiences he bases his opinion on.
I never said that I didn't support immigration. I do and I don't care who is doing the immigrating, be it Muslim, Mexican or Iranian. It doesn't even bother me if this family is granted asylum. I don't have a bone to pick with every person who supports this family's request for asylum. I also don't have a problem with homeschoolers in general.
What I do have a problem with is that the majority of far right conservative Christians, many of whom feel that all Muslims and Mexicans should be banned from entering our country (seriously, they do), ran to the aid of this family solely because A.)The family was Christian B.) The family homeschooled and C.) they Disagree with Germany's laws.
These are the same people who support the Republicans in Congress who refused to sign the most recent immigration bill because it would allow spouses in (legal) bi-national same-sex marriages become American citizens. Yet, they will support a family who broke their own country's laws, came to America under false pretenses and then refused to leave while requesting asylum. That, to me, is hypocritical.
Again, I'm not calling everyone who thinks this family deserves asylum a hypocrite - just the ones who take a hard stance on immigration in all other circumstances (like for people who have worked and paid taxes in America for 20 years OR for Mexicans who came to America to escape the increasing drug violence in Mexico. I don't hear any sympathy for them.)
Hopefully, I have clarified myself.
No, Griffox, you didn't say anything that would give the impression of that you are against immigration, homeschooling, or this family. I think the problem is "Christian fundamentalists have proven in every situation to be hypocrites."
I assume Homeschool Mom also has her experiences to base her opinion on. It is hard to note the "fundamentalist" on the generalisation, and it's hard to know what one means with it - and easy to assume you are talking about all Christians...
But what do I know.
I do hope she comes back to continue the discussion.
Yay! I FOUND you, Ketutar! Very impressive post and I am also impressed with your command of English and the subtleties of this particular situation, which I have been following with great interest.
I wouldn't argue with your take on the German Christian family seeking asylum. I wouldn't even argue with the German stance on homeschooling. They are German. They get to do things the way they want. However, as an older, Midwestern American Christian, my viewpoint is different (as one would expect). To me, the children do indeed "belong" to the parents in the sense that it is the parents who are ultimately responsible, not the state. Homeschooling is fine as long as it isn't terribly extreme in some way, and can meet general standards. I know quite a few homeschoolers and homeschooled kids. They don't seem that different than any other kids, except they have notably better manners! :D
As far as education in America, it's true that a lot of the public schools are a disaster, but there is a huge difference between inner city and suburban/small town schools, generally speaking. At the moment I am feeling very negative about education in the US. I am wondering where my grandchildren will go to school.
The "German Christian Family Seeking Asylum" has become a lightening rod here for those with strong opinions on any number of points. We probably just want to argue and don't really care about the logic of it any more.
I just LOVE you, my adorable Pagan Pinterest sister!
Abigail C. Smas
"Abby" in Kent, Ohio, USA
Oooo Ooooo - one more thing:
I am always fascinated by politics, population, and area (sq.miles, for me).
US - 4 Million Square Miles
316 Million People
50 States
Germany 138,000 Square Miles
82 Million People
16 States
In Germany, the states set the standards.
In the US, the Federal government (Department of Education)is trying to impose more regulations. There is an uproar over this.
In Germany, there are 100 or so institutions of higher learning; in the US, 4500 and roughly 100,000 public schools.
So it's a very interesting comparison. And I REALLY DO NOT want the Federal government in charge of educating my children. They pretty much eff up everything. ;)
Abby
YAY! You found me :-D Lovely to see you, Abby :-)
And thank you! :-)
"Homeschooling is fine as long as it isn't terribly extreme in some way, and can meet general standards. I know quite a few homeschoolers and homeschooled kids. They don't seem that different than any other kids, except they have notably better manners!"
I do agree with you on this.
" And I REALLY DO NOT want the Federal government in charge of educating my children. They pretty much eff up everything. ;)"
I can understand this view point as well :-)
But - I'm Finnish, Finland is a 5 million people country up high in North, where the Federal government actually does an OK job in educating the kids. But we have almost 1000 years of tradition of being an occupied country, and the power of the government rather easily reaches every corner of my little home country. There are ways of... hm... leading the rulers from the bottom layer.
I think someone said that Finland is very monolithic society, there isn't much diversity. Even our right wing political parties are more left than your Democratic party :-D We are mostly social liberal, and then there are no big clashes of opinion and values... so the Federal government and "guardianship" works better. I suppose that's the biggest problem, if one wish, with the USonian system, the opposites are very big.
But I really am glad to see you here :-)
Post a Comment