confessions for the holidays
I was with him until " I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period."
I believe in God and I have never been pushed around. Of course there are people who think I'm an idiot for believing in God. I don't care. I don't think my God cares either. I don't find it in any way offensive that people wish me "happy holidays" (in fact, it feels nice, inclusive), or "merry Christmas" (it feels nice, too. :-D) I like it when people wish me well. I don't mind it when people curse me, threaten me and tell me I'll go to hell. I know those people have nothing to do with my relation to God.
I don't mind it if people tell me to keep my exercising my religion to myself. I believe one's religion is a thing between oneself and one's God. Now, people yapping about my pentagram, the way I dress, or my usage of words, that's not OK, but - I know it's not me, it's them. They are just being rude and intolerant. So - I don't care much. I won't stop wearing my pentagram. I am a proud Pagan and I'm not afraid to show it.
I do mind when people don't keep their exercising of their religion to themselves. I do mind when my education is interrupted with prayers to a God I don't believe in. I especially mind when my space is invaded by a culture that has harmed me.
I shouldn't need to tolerate a Nazi flag, and I shouldn't need to tolerate the symbols of people who has been persecuted my people for centuries.
And I really don't care that to you the Federation Flag doesn't stand for racism and persecution of Black people. Proudly display it in your own home.
And, yes, the Christian symbols are really as strongly negative as these symbols to some people.
Now, I don't mind nativity scenes and plays and angels and all that. I have some objections to some Christmas songs, but what irks me most is "Jesus is the reason for the season". It is offensive. It is ignorant, it is selfish, self-centered and callous. It is also wrong. Solstice is the reason for the season. MY religion, faith and spiritual beliefs, MY people are the reason we celebrate Midwinter.
So, sure, there's a war on Christmas, but it was the Christians who started it some 1700 years ago. It is OUR party. You MAY celebrate it because WE are kind and generous, but you MAY NOT hog it!
Infuse your holiday celebrations with any symbolism and meaning you wish to, but don't assume that's the actual meaning. Only 200 years ago people celebrated Christmas by fasting the day and going to church. The Pagans celebrated Midwinter with lavish foods and fun and games, coming together and partying, and even the gift giving is Pagan. The Pagans decorated their homes with evergreens and decorating trees with beautiful things is so Pagan it's a wonder any Christian ever thought it wasn't. But - that's one of my pet peeves.
Separation of State and Religion:
I believe in the separation of state and religion. Why?
I believe a Christian shouldn't need to hear Pagan prayers and shouldn't need to see Pagan idols in their everyday environment, and especially not in the environment they must visit. Pagan idols belong to Pagan homes and temples.
AS I BELIEVE IN THE GOLDEN RULE, I, A PAGAN, SHOULDN'T NEED TO DEAL WITH YOUR RELIGION.
I shouldn't need to see Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or any other) idols, icons and attributes in the public area (churches, temples etc. should, of course, exist, and should be accessible and respected), I shouldn't need to remove myself from the common rooms if I wish to not listen to Christian prayers, Holy Book being read, etc. etc. The only place for religion in schools is the classes where religion is being taught and in private clubs and so on. If the Christians in school wish to have a prayer circle and Jesus club, that's fine. But it may not interfere with the regular, general, equal education, just as the other clubs and leisure time activities may not. You are not excused from biology class because you need to pray.
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR HOLY BOOK TELLS YOU TO PRAY IN SECRET AND NOT MAKE YOUR FAITH AND RELIGION THE BUSINESS OF OTHER PEOPLE.
"where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God?"
Who says you aren't allowed to worship God?
We are saying you need to do that in private, in your places of worship, in your homes, not that you may not do that. Why do you need to display your worship in public for you to feel you "may"? Why do you need to flaunt it?
And who says you should worship celebrities? Is there some... er... Britney-Spears-mass or George-Clooney-day in USA? Where symbols for these celebrities are displayed in public places and people are forced to listen to the teacher or mayor or some other authority talk about their adoration of these people? Because there sure aren't any such days or celebrations in Sweden. The people who worship celebrities are generally regarded as more or less silly, like "Twihards" or "beliebers". They at least keep their worship for themselves and just intensely hate the haters. They aren't forcing everyone to listen their songs, scriptures or discussions with their idols, or watching the movies or what ever their celebrity idol does.
In Finland there's always a lot of Christian things in public television on Christmas and Good Friday. They will always broadcast at least one nativity movie on Christmas and at least one Jesus' life and death movie on Easter. As I said, Good Friday was even more so, because EVERYTHING broadcast on that day was built around Good Friday. Just think of a religion you don't much care about (like, I don't know, Satanism?), and think there's a day when everything around you, in television, in public, in stores, on the streets, everywhere, is about that religion and some single event important to that religion. Do you still think it is OK and people are overreacting when they tell you to keep your faith out of the public, general, common environment? It really is a question of consideration and "doing unto others".
So, this is not OK: "'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'"
I have not told God once to get out of my life. I have told the Christians to get their religion out of OUR schools and government. Why aren't the Christians "gentlemen"?
Hurricanes, earth quakes, tsunamis, all the natural catastrophes happened even when the state and religion were inherently bound. You are not blaming non-Christians and people who wish to keep the state and religion separated for natural catastrophes!
If Madalyn Murray O'Hair was murdered because God didn't protect her, because she didn't want God to, why are "good Christians" and "good Jews" murdered?
Madalyn Murray O'Hair's kidnapping and murder was a horrifying piece of history that had nothing to do with her beliefs, and shouldn't be used as some sort of rhetoric point. That's really not speaking well of the author's morals.
The secular humanist and atheist morality says "do not murder people, do not take things that belong to other people, do not do to others what you don't want to be done to you". That's basic human morality we learn in the kindergarten. It has always been "it's good to do things I like when done to me, and bad when things are done I don't want to happen". I don't want to be killed, I don't want my loved ones to be killed, so I don't kill. It has nothing to do with religion, Christianity, the Bible or any Holy Scriptures. This is human morality. People who can't read follow this.
Also, when prayers and Bible reading was a habit in schools, people were still hurting others, murdering people, stealing their things and what not.
Dr. Benjamin Spock was 100% correct about his views about spanking. I was not spanked and I am not a murderous a-hole. The prisons are full of people who were physically punished. Frankly, if you cannot solve a problem without violence, you shouldn't be responsible of anyone's well-being. Spanking parents are despicable. Yes, spanking teaches kids that "might is right". And just look at the USonian general attitude today. "If you don't do as I tell you, I'm going to force you to!" "I'll kill you if you don't!" "I'll start a war!" "I'll punch you on the nose if you don't shut up!"
I have a strong conscience, more so, because my parents were intelligent and kind people, who taught me to use my own intellect to separate the right from wrong, who spoke with me about my errors and wrong-doings, who made me understand the consequences of my choices. My siblings brought up their children with the same principles, and they are all good people.
In Sweden, spanking is illegal, and the Swedes are less murderous people than the USonians.
So, no, spanking is not the reason why people get a conscience. Spanking is the reason why people think might is right and if you don't get caught, you can do anything.
Dr Spock's son didn't commit suicide. His grandson did. The boy had mental health problems. BUT YOU WILL NOT USE SOMEONE'S SUICIDE TO MAKE A POINT. That's despicable as well.
"Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell."
Funny how easy it is for some people to equate themselves with God.
Separation of the state and the religion is not trashing God. It's separating the state and the religion.
The world isn't going to hell. The general morality of people is better than it was 300 years ago, when the whole Western world was Christian. Secular humanists are among the most moral people in the world. You don't need God to be good. If you do, you are not good. If you do what you think God wants you to do (and that that is revealed to you in a book or by some authority), and think godless people are bad people and immoral people, you don't know the difference between what's good and what is bad.
Besides, if God can't take some trashing, God isn't worth to be considered a God. REAL God isn't petty.
"Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says."
The newspapers should be reporting facts and if a newspaper is found out to report not facts, they are being reprimanded and if it happens more than once, people won't believe what that newspaper says.
Now, what one holy scripture says is often something different from what another holy scripture says, and when it comes to the Bible, it contradicts itself often. There is no instance one could complain about the errors and non-facts and no responsibility. Every man and his dog has their own interpretation of what the words mean, and it was written in several languages, by several people, during a very long period of time, a very long time ago. Holy Scriptures - ALL OF THEM - are to be considered fiction and philosophical ponderings, and one should question what the Bible says.
"Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing".
In my experience people share political outrage more than jokes or religious thoughts. I wish I share most often good news and calls for action to make the world a better place. I'll try to get better with this.
But... if there is a Bible in every home and people are supposed to read that, why would they resend messages regarding the Lord?
Also, please, don't send me messages regarding your God. I really think that's between you two, and I wish to be left out of your relationship. Jokes I'd like to receive. I like laughing. I believe God likes laughing as well.
"Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace."
Public discussion of God passes also freely through cyberspace, and lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene discussions are suppressed in the school and workplace.
Also, do not discuss God at a workplace! I have nothing against people wanting to discuss their God with people, because I can say "no" and expect my borders to be respected, but the only workplaces where it's appropriate to discuss God are churches and other such places. Do not try to introduce prayers to people's work and school. That is disrespectful and intrusive, and totally unnecessary. Discuss God with your friends and family at your leisure time, and pray in secrecy, AS YOUR GOD TOLD YOU TO DO.
"If you discard this thought process, don’t sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in" is very bad logic and effort to manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, and that, my dear, is highly immoral. "This though process" should be discarded, because it's illogical, based on stupid and faulty assumptions and it is whiny, blaming others for things that are not their fault nor responsibility. Sharing this little piece of crap doesn't warrant you to sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in, because it doesn't do anything to improve the shape of the world. It suggests that the world would be better place if there weren't separation of state and religion and if children were hurt as a "punishment" for some imagined grievances. We were there for some 1000 years, and the world was not a better place!
I was with him until " I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period."
I believe in God and I have never been pushed around. Of course there are people who think I'm an idiot for believing in God. I don't care. I don't think my God cares either. I don't find it in any way offensive that people wish me "happy holidays" (in fact, it feels nice, inclusive), or "merry Christmas" (it feels nice, too. :-D) I like it when people wish me well. I don't mind it when people curse me, threaten me and tell me I'll go to hell. I know those people have nothing to do with my relation to God.
I don't mind it if people tell me to keep my exercising my religion to myself. I believe one's religion is a thing between oneself and one's God. Now, people yapping about my pentagram, the way I dress, or my usage of words, that's not OK, but - I know it's not me, it's them. They are just being rude and intolerant. So - I don't care much. I won't stop wearing my pentagram. I am a proud Pagan and I'm not afraid to show it.
I do mind when people don't keep their exercising of their religion to themselves. I do mind when my education is interrupted with prayers to a God I don't believe in. I especially mind when my space is invaded by a culture that has harmed me.
I shouldn't need to tolerate a Nazi flag, and I shouldn't need to tolerate the symbols of people who has been persecuted my people for centuries.
And I really don't care that to you the Federation Flag doesn't stand for racism and persecution of Black people. Proudly display it in your own home.
And, yes, the Christian symbols are really as strongly negative as these symbols to some people.
Now, I don't mind nativity scenes and plays and angels and all that. I have some objections to some Christmas songs, but what irks me most is "Jesus is the reason for the season". It is offensive. It is ignorant, it is selfish, self-centered and callous. It is also wrong. Solstice is the reason for the season. MY religion, faith and spiritual beliefs, MY people are the reason we celebrate Midwinter.
So, sure, there's a war on Christmas, but it was the Christians who started it some 1700 years ago. It is OUR party. You MAY celebrate it because WE are kind and generous, but you MAY NOT hog it!
Infuse your holiday celebrations with any symbolism and meaning you wish to, but don't assume that's the actual meaning. Only 200 years ago people celebrated Christmas by fasting the day and going to church. The Pagans celebrated Midwinter with lavish foods and fun and games, coming together and partying, and even the gift giving is Pagan. The Pagans decorated their homes with evergreens and decorating trees with beautiful things is so Pagan it's a wonder any Christian ever thought it wasn't. But - that's one of my pet peeves.
Separation of State and Religion:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."- Thomas Jefferson, 1802If you can't find anything in the constitution about the separation of the state and religion, it's because you don't understand the text.
I believe in the separation of state and religion. Why?
I believe a Christian shouldn't need to hear Pagan prayers and shouldn't need to see Pagan idols in their everyday environment, and especially not in the environment they must visit. Pagan idols belong to Pagan homes and temples.
AS I BELIEVE IN THE GOLDEN RULE, I, A PAGAN, SHOULDN'T NEED TO DEAL WITH YOUR RELIGION.
I shouldn't need to see Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or any other) idols, icons and attributes in the public area (churches, temples etc. should, of course, exist, and should be accessible and respected), I shouldn't need to remove myself from the common rooms if I wish to not listen to Christian prayers, Holy Book being read, etc. etc. The only place for religion in schools is the classes where religion is being taught and in private clubs and so on. If the Christians in school wish to have a prayer circle and Jesus club, that's fine. But it may not interfere with the regular, general, equal education, just as the other clubs and leisure time activities may not. You are not excused from biology class because you need to pray.
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR HOLY BOOK TELLS YOU TO PRAY IN SECRET AND NOT MAKE YOUR FAITH AND RELIGION THE BUSINESS OF OTHER PEOPLE.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocritesare: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues andin the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.Matthew 6:5
"where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God?"
Who says you aren't allowed to worship God?
We are saying you need to do that in private, in your places of worship, in your homes, not that you may not do that. Why do you need to display your worship in public for you to feel you "may"? Why do you need to flaunt it?
And who says you should worship celebrities? Is there some... er... Britney-Spears-mass or George-Clooney-day in USA? Where symbols for these celebrities are displayed in public places and people are forced to listen to the teacher or mayor or some other authority talk about their adoration of these people? Because there sure aren't any such days or celebrations in Sweden. The people who worship celebrities are generally regarded as more or less silly, like "Twihards" or "beliebers". They at least keep their worship for themselves and just intensely hate the haters. They aren't forcing everyone to listen their songs, scriptures or discussions with their idols, or watching the movies or what ever their celebrity idol does.
In Finland there's always a lot of Christian things in public television on Christmas and Good Friday. They will always broadcast at least one nativity movie on Christmas and at least one Jesus' life and death movie on Easter. As I said, Good Friday was even more so, because EVERYTHING broadcast on that day was built around Good Friday. Just think of a religion you don't much care about (like, I don't know, Satanism?), and think there's a day when everything around you, in television, in public, in stores, on the streets, everywhere, is about that religion and some single event important to that religion. Do you still think it is OK and people are overreacting when they tell you to keep your faith out of the public, general, common environment? It really is a question of consideration and "doing unto others".
So, this is not OK: "'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'"
I have not told God once to get out of my life. I have told the Christians to get their religion out of OUR schools and government. Why aren't the Christians "gentlemen"?
Hurricanes, earth quakes, tsunamis, all the natural catastrophes happened even when the state and religion were inherently bound. You are not blaming non-Christians and people who wish to keep the state and religion separated for natural catastrophes!
If Madalyn Murray O'Hair was murdered because God didn't protect her, because she didn't want God to, why are "good Christians" and "good Jews" murdered?
Madalyn Murray O'Hair's kidnapping and murder was a horrifying piece of history that had nothing to do with her beliefs, and shouldn't be used as some sort of rhetoric point. That's really not speaking well of the author's morals.
The secular humanist and atheist morality says "do not murder people, do not take things that belong to other people, do not do to others what you don't want to be done to you". That's basic human morality we learn in the kindergarten. It has always been "it's good to do things I like when done to me, and bad when things are done I don't want to happen". I don't want to be killed, I don't want my loved ones to be killed, so I don't kill. It has nothing to do with religion, Christianity, the Bible or any Holy Scriptures. This is human morality. People who can't read follow this.
Also, when prayers and Bible reading was a habit in schools, people were still hurting others, murdering people, stealing their things and what not.
Dr. Benjamin Spock was 100% correct about his views about spanking. I was not spanked and I am not a murderous a-hole. The prisons are full of people who were physically punished. Frankly, if you cannot solve a problem without violence, you shouldn't be responsible of anyone's well-being. Spanking parents are despicable. Yes, spanking teaches kids that "might is right". And just look at the USonian general attitude today. "If you don't do as I tell you, I'm going to force you to!" "I'll kill you if you don't!" "I'll start a war!" "I'll punch you on the nose if you don't shut up!"
I have a strong conscience, more so, because my parents were intelligent and kind people, who taught me to use my own intellect to separate the right from wrong, who spoke with me about my errors and wrong-doings, who made me understand the consequences of my choices. My siblings brought up their children with the same principles, and they are all good people.
In Sweden, spanking is illegal, and the Swedes are less murderous people than the USonians.
So, no, spanking is not the reason why people get a conscience. Spanking is the reason why people think might is right and if you don't get caught, you can do anything.
Dr Spock's son didn't commit suicide. His grandson did. The boy had mental health problems. BUT YOU WILL NOT USE SOMEONE'S SUICIDE TO MAKE A POINT. That's despicable as well.
"Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell."
Funny how easy it is for some people to equate themselves with God.
Separation of the state and the religion is not trashing God. It's separating the state and the religion.
The world isn't going to hell. The general morality of people is better than it was 300 years ago, when the whole Western world was Christian. Secular humanists are among the most moral people in the world. You don't need God to be good. If you do, you are not good. If you do what you think God wants you to do (and that that is revealed to you in a book or by some authority), and think godless people are bad people and immoral people, you don't know the difference between what's good and what is bad.
Besides, if God can't take some trashing, God isn't worth to be considered a God. REAL God isn't petty.
"Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says."
The newspapers should be reporting facts and if a newspaper is found out to report not facts, they are being reprimanded and if it happens more than once, people won't believe what that newspaper says.
Now, what one holy scripture says is often something different from what another holy scripture says, and when it comes to the Bible, it contradicts itself often. There is no instance one could complain about the errors and non-facts and no responsibility. Every man and his dog has their own interpretation of what the words mean, and it was written in several languages, by several people, during a very long period of time, a very long time ago. Holy Scriptures - ALL OF THEM - are to be considered fiction and philosophical ponderings, and one should question what the Bible says.
"Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing".
In my experience people share political outrage more than jokes or religious thoughts. I wish I share most often good news and calls for action to make the world a better place. I'll try to get better with this.
But... if there is a Bible in every home and people are supposed to read that, why would they resend messages regarding the Lord?
Also, please, don't send me messages regarding your God. I really think that's between you two, and I wish to be left out of your relationship. Jokes I'd like to receive. I like laughing. I believe God likes laughing as well.
"Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace."
Public discussion of God passes also freely through cyberspace, and lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene discussions are suppressed in the school and workplace.
Also, do not discuss God at a workplace! I have nothing against people wanting to discuss their God with people, because I can say "no" and expect my borders to be respected, but the only workplaces where it's appropriate to discuss God are churches and other such places. Do not try to introduce prayers to people's work and school. That is disrespectful and intrusive, and totally unnecessary. Discuss God with your friends and family at your leisure time, and pray in secrecy, AS YOUR GOD TOLD YOU TO DO.
"If you discard this thought process, don’t sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in" is very bad logic and effort to manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, and that, my dear, is highly immoral. "This though process" should be discarded, because it's illogical, based on stupid and faulty assumptions and it is whiny, blaming others for things that are not their fault nor responsibility. Sharing this little piece of crap doesn't warrant you to sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in, because it doesn't do anything to improve the shape of the world. It suggests that the world would be better place if there weren't separation of state and religion and if children were hurt as a "punishment" for some imagined grievances. We were there for some 1000 years, and the world was not a better place!
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