"I don't think we can talk about a peace process with a man who says the 1967 lines are an illusion, that Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel, undivided, and he does not want a single (Palestinian) refugee to go back," Erekat said. "What is left to negotiate about?"
- Palestinians to proceed with UN recognition
What about getting down the wall?
What about removing settlers from West Bank?
Now, I know some people seem to think the settlers aren't illegal, but that's just more reason to negotiate with Israel to get rid of them.
What about removing checkpoints from West Bank?
What about letting political prisoners out of the prisons?
We must remember here a couple of things here: not every Palestinian in Israeli prisoners are there as a political prisoner. You're not a political prisoner because you are in a prison for a crime you committed for political reasons.
A political prisoner is a person who is in jail WITHOUT COMMITTING A CRIME.
Also, it doesn't matter if you think the crime shouldn't be a crime. If a country's legislation says it's a crime to incite violence against certain people - which is something most Western countries' legislation says, and I think it is as it should be - then it is a crime to tell people to take on weapons, stones if nothing else is at hands, and march against the police, army and government forces, and praise a suicide bomber for his courage in fight against the oppressors. Also, according to Geneva Convention fighting against the enemy without "flying colors", that is, with no recognizable uniform and insignia - makes you an unlawful combattant. All saboteurs, resistanse fighters and spies are counted in to this category, and the enemy has the right to shoot you on spot. So - all the Palestinians who are members of any militant resistance group are also unlawful combattants; not civilians and not innocent. You don't need to be a terrorist or suicide bomber, or even DO anything else but join the group.
This makes most of the Palestinians - even women and some children - into criminals and not political prisoners. Now, I know there are some people who are in jails because they are someone's brother, mother, sister or wife, because someone with the same name did something, because someone said you did something, and those people shouldn't be in jail. So what about negotiating about those people's release?
What about taking down the military siege of Gaza, so that ships can start bringing in things?
And that Palestinian fishermen can take up their occupation again, and start feeding their families, and that Gazans can start selling their agricultural products straight to Europe and North Africa...
What about allowing planes to Westbank and Gaza? What about building a new airport to West Bank and Gaza, so that people don't need to go to Ben Gurion in Tel Aviv when they want to travel to and from Palestine?
What about stopping the air patrolling of the Palestine?
What about allowing Palestinian citizens to travel freely without consent from Israel?
What about allowing the Palestinians living NOW in Israel full citizenship with all the rights and privileges?
Like being able to marry who ever you want and see that your husband/wife can move together with you and live with you, so that you won't need to visit your spouse in militarily occupied territories and wait hours on the border for nothing?
What about allowing Palestinians to IMMIGRATE to Israel as normal human beings?
I mean, as the Palestinians complain that their old villages have been demolished, no-one is living in their old homes and so on, it shouldn't be a problem to buy them back.
What is money? Nothing. If every pro-Palestinian donated just a dollar, or the richer donated two to cover for the poor ones, we could easily collect the money needed for the purchases. After all, that's how the Jews got the money to buy land in Palestine before -48. With a little help from friends.
And the "disgrace" of "needing to buy back something that belongs to me"? Some things have emotional value higher than all the monetary means in the world. What wouldn't you pay for the joy of being back where you belong? What wouldn't you pay for the right to look anyone in the eyes and say "This is mine. I bought it - TWICE". What is important here, that you get what you want, or that you are GIVEN what you want? If it is an apology you wait, you may have to wait for the rest of the eternity. If it is that Israelis leave the country or say they stole it, that you might have to wait even longer. I know you think I'm just another pro-Israeli idiot, but think about it a little. What is important here? Some empty words everyone knows mean nothing, or that you get back home? That your children grow up in the same place where their forefathers grew up, that they can stop calling themselves refugees?
I am an expatriate. I am Finnish, living in Sweden. Remember that Finland was occupied by Sweden from 1249 to 1809, and after that by Russia, until 1917 when Finland became independent.
What about building a railroad from Westbank to Gaza?
What about guaranteeing a safe passage of people, wares, water and electricity between these two parts of Palestine?
What about allowing Palestinians to visit any holy places in Israel without harassment?
What about peace, recognition and end of occupation?
What about water?
What about jobs?
What about hospitals?
What about schools?
Obviously none of those issues is important, or even interesting for Palestinian authority. I don't get how they think. To me all of those questions are more important than the return of fabricated "refugees", control of a city or some old lines on paper. On the other hand, Finland was occupied FOR 700 YEARS. I suppose that puts the independence, sovereignty, freedom and peace in a very different perspective.
Yes, fabricated refugees - Palestinians are the ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD where descendants are counted as refugees. EVERY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD must be "1st generation refugee", Palestinians are "2nd", "3rd" and now even "4th generation refugees". The true number of Palestinian refugees was about 800.000 1947 and 300.000 1967, and most of them have died by now. Nevertheless, UNRWA (also something specific for the Palestinian people... For some reason I don't think it is because the world sees Palestinians are more worthy people than all the other people in the world... I have easier to believe it has something to do with their oppressors than themselves... easier to believe it is a show of antisemitism - that JEWS doing bad things are WORSE than ANYONE ELSE doing bad things, so the Jews' victims must have a special status as well...)
People keep asking what right does Israel have to exist. No other, but the right of self-determination. The only right Palestine has to exist.
People keep asking what right does the Jews have to Palestine. I respond by saying "you can't seriously deny the Jews' right to Judea, can you?"
I ask you what right the Palestinians have to Jerusalem? It has never been the capital of Palestine, but it was and is the capital of Judea... So what right do the Palestinians have to it, and why do they insist on having it?
The "lines on paper" are not fair and there is no reason what so ever to hang on them... the borders need to be drawn anew and better this time, taking under consideration the holy sites of both sides, water resources, agricultural resources and neighbors, and both people's wishes.
Remember that the Arabs didn't accept the lines on paper when Israel was given LESS than "pre-67 borders", they didn't make Palestine independent when THEY had the controll of the area - so why are they so adamant about it now? There is only one possible answer to that question. The Arabs don't want a Jewish state in Middle East. The Arabs want only Arab states in Middle East. They don't even accept the Palestinians were a people of their own, to Arabs "Palestinian" is an Arab living in British Palestine West of Jordan. Now, if Palestinians are Arabs, they DON*T have the "right to self-determination", as there already is several countries where the Arabs express their "right to self-determination"...
Now, I know how strong a power ultra-nationalism and antisemitism can be, so I can understand the Arab position and unwillingness to get a working solution to this problem, but what is incomprehensible to me, is that the whole world just accepts the Palestinian version of the story... I suppose it is because 1/3 of the world is Muslim, the Arabs are a real power in the world. (Not the Jews. Come on! 13.000.000 people of whom 99% is either religious scholars or scientists, women, children or elderly. The world's richest man, Carlos Slim Helú is of Lebanese origin, and not a Jew. And what about those oil sheiks? Not Jewish, not one of them, but damn they are rich... nevertheless people are talking about Jews and money. Not about the Arabs and money... And the newspapers? Who reads newspapers anymore? And who believes everthing what is said in news? Not anyone capable of independent thinking and at least some ability to use the different media available today. And even if you seriously believe the Protocolls of the Elders of Zion's "money and media" conspiracy, as every man and their dog is online and publishing more information (most of it naturally false and pure fiction), no-one has the time or capacity to controll the media today.
But - trying to convince conspiracy theorists of that their theories are based on loose sand... you drown in the loose sand before the conspiracy theorist changes his mind :-D
I know writing all this is totally futile, but I'm so fed up with the so called pro-Palestinians who don't THINK for one second what the people and ideas they support mean IN REALITY to PALESTINIANS.
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4 comments:
Most of the above is nothing that has to be negotiated - most of it should not be there in the first place. Having to ngotiate these things away is the biggest joke I've ever heard. If the Palestinians are the only people with a "special" refugee status, then the Israelis are the only people who are allowed to break any kind of moral/international law and then have the victims "negotiate" it away for concessions... What a joke!
'I respond by saying "you can't seriously deny the Jews' right to Judea, can you?" '. Uhm, why? Cause it's in some 3000 year old book?
"Nothing that has to be negotiated because it should not be there..."
Should or should not, the reality is that it IS.
Israel has already everything it wants, Palestine doesn't. Why would Israel give anything to Palestine? Because it's the "right" thing to do? Because it "should be" a certain way? Might be, but will they? If you are pro-Palestinian, you will answer, in the light of everything that has happened "Israel won't GIVE anything to the Palestinians for ANY reason". USA can't make them, UN can't make them, Arab nations can't make them, 40 years of Palestinians Intifada couldn't make them - the world's agitation hasn't done much... what do you think would "make them" do "what's right", what they "should" according to you?
"IF Palestinians are only people..."? Are you questioning this? On what grounds?
"Israelis are the only people who are allowed to break any kind of law and then have the victims..."
What? Have you ever studied ANY history? The stronger party has NEVER GIVEN ANYTHING to the weaker party, anywhere in the world, at any time during the history. Why would Israel be the exception?
"moral laws" are useless to discuss as every human being have their own set of "moral laws".
When it comes to "international laws" EVERYBODY is violating those, and most don't get any consequences. China was even rewarded the Olympic games and they promised "gold and green forests", in stead everything has just turned worse, and nobody is doing anything.
And you don't even need to go far from Israel to find people/states violating "moral/international laws" and get away with it. Does the concept "Arab Spring" mean anything to you?
No, Anonymous, this is not a question of what is "right" or how things "should" be, but what is. We SHOULD be talking about REALITY, not some humanistic dream or utopia. Do you really expect Israel to take down the wall just because Palestine declares itself independent?
Really?
REALLY, ANONYMOUS?
I don't find it the least amusing that the losers are the ones who HAVE TO make concessions, who have to give in, give up, yield, crawl and humiliate themselves, but that is the way things work in this world. You go and laugh at the Palestinian funerals.
"Uhm, why? Cause it's in some 3000 year old book?"
Uhm, no, but because of the same reasons the so-called pro-Palestinians keep saying "it's called Palestine!"
It was the same people who named Judea Judea, who named Palestine Palestine, and Judea has been Judea for as long as Palestine has been Palestine.
(I don't much care about some 3000 years old books, unless they are government records.
I assume you are referring to the Bible, which to me is a story book, and nothing in it can be used to prove anything, just as little as the Muslims can claim any right to Jerusalem or any other area of the world by the Quran - which is some 700 years old story book.)
The only "morally legal" option to anyone to deny the Jews' right to Judea, is if they deny the Palestinians' right to Palestine at the same time.
It's the same to me, and frankly, it would be better to forget all that was, and try to do the best of what is for those who are here now, and just forget the Egyptians, Romans, crusades and Ottoman Empire, and start anew.
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