Warning: volatile subject: JEWS
Don Feder is more a Right-Wing USonian than a Jew, and his opinions are of that caliber. Most of the most vocal representants of the "Conservatives" are pretty good with words. They use a lot of them to say mostly nothing, spiced with passive aggressive insults and arrogant expressions of disdain.
Nevertheless, he's Jewish, so what ever he says, the whole Jewish people is collectively responsible for.
I just have to comment one part of the text:
"Armenian genocide resolutions have passed one house of both the French and Italian legislatures. (While thus occupied, Paris doesn't have to deal with the complicity of Vichy France in the genocide that defined the term.) "
Er... who ever said that must be unaware that "Vichy France" was subordinate to the Germans. What ever.
"Armenians maintain that early in World War I, the Ottoman Turks slaughtered 1.5 million of their countrymen in an act of calculated barbarism foreshadowing the Holocaust. Turks, who put Armenian casualties much lower, say the objective was relocation, not extermination. "
Well, it is a fact that thousands of Armenians - men, women, children, elderly - were killed by Ottoman Turks 1915, and this "relocation", which in itself is classified as genocide now-a-days, is fully comparable to the Navajo Long Walk.
I am really not interested what some USonian fascist says, how ever else he defines himself. What I found to be "volatile" is the "thought provoking article by Harout", which starts with
"Zion, I’m going to respond to your question publicly. Because it is an important question and we should share it with others", and continues with the usual Schopenhaueric techniques and avoid answering the question all together.
Also, his choice of the "can you prove" questions is very interesting. He is actually admitting that his "facts" are just theories, that are to be believed, just like the existence of God. There is no intellectually acceptable evidence to prove his claims, only some opinions, ideas and theories he thinks sounds good, so "they must be true".
"You know what, if we could prove these facts to each other, we would most probably be deader than a doornail."
Probably not, but it's always so handy to claim you are not revealing your sources in fear of persecution. You know, REAL human rights heroes prove the facts in spite of a REAL threat to their safety. That's what separates men from mice.
Besides, don't call your speculation, theories and ideas facts. There are no "real", "true" or "fake" facts. A fact is a fact. A theory is not a fact. An opinion is not a fact. A belief is not a fact. Not true nor fake.
"We are discussing events and realities that are universally known, yet cannot be adequately proven"
No. You are discussing speculations, ideas, theories and antisemitic crap BEHIND the events and realities that are verifyiable facts.
BTW, NOTHING is "universally known", not even that Earth is a globe that goes around the Sun.
"The inner dynamics of state policies of major nations are things you and I cannot comprehend and would never be given a chance to experience first hand."
What? The inner dynamics of state policies are man made, thus very comprehensible for every intelligent human being. If you cannot comprehend such things, why do you even bother trying to discuss them with people who do?
"What we ‘clearly’ know is that Jews have been actively working with Turks in Washington against Armenians. Right?"
Wrong. I don't know anything about such things, and you refuse to publish any information about it, claiming it's a "taboo" to do so, it's dangerous, it's going to get you killed, it's an "universal truth" and other such bull.
"We do know that Jewish establishments, organizations, and prominent figures in Turkey openly insult Armenians. Right?"
Wrong. We do know that Armenians openly insult Jews all over the world in sites like "Armenian Cafe". Why? Because you won't answer a simple question and provide verifyiable facts on which you base your arguments.
"Have you ever asked yourself why the Greeks, Assyrians and the Kurds of Turkey do not resort to similar tactics to gain favors from Ankara? "
Have you ever asked yourself what other differences there are between the Jewish, Greek, Assyrian, Armenian and Kurdish turks, or did you just jump on the first idea you got, that is, the antisemitic, antizionist idea?
We do know that Zionists do not want to see the Armenian genocide recognized because it is the Jews that have the monopoly of being a ‘victimized nation’. Right?
Wrong. If you listen to the non-Jewish fascists, you will hear that it's the Jews and their idiotic "human rights" ideas created to enslave the rest of the world, who are pushing the recognizion of Armenian genocide. You see, there is only one "genocide" the Zionists have an interest to deny, the Palestinian "genocide". And I say "genocide", because what's happening in Israel-Palestine doesn't fulfill the requirements of a genocide.
Also, claiming that the Jews try to upkeep some sort of monopoly of being a victimized nation is antisemitic. They ARE a victimized nation, and I have never heard a Jew claim they are the ONLY victimized nation, on the contrary.
"I personally know of an Armenian-American Journalist that could not get an article about the Armenian Genocide published in the ‘Jew’ York Times, unless, she included references to the Jewish Holocaust and Armenian assassinations of Turks."
Of course, because you personally know this person, she must exist... and the story must have happened as you say it did. You wouldn't lie, would you? Naturally, her version of the story is the only truth story, she wouldn't lie or twist the truth to fit her agenda - she doesn't even have an agenda, and suggesting she does is offensive - and there is no other reason to for this except that the Jews must remain the only victimized nation - except that by publishing a story about the Armenian genocide, they have to admit there IS an Armenian genocide, and that Armenians are also a victimized people...
Oh, and "the ‘Jew’ York Times" is also antisemitic.
"We do know that the Zionist state of Israel has very cordial relations with Turkey and Azerbaijan and not Armenia. Right? "
Wrong. Armenia is one of the biggest trade partners of Israel, and have cordial relations. In fact, the majority of Israel's citizens is demanding Israel recognizes the Armenian genocide, which very few countries have done so far.
Even though Armenians desecrated the Holocaust memorial in Yerevan, and
engage in other forms of antisemitic propaganda.
Even though Armenia has friendly relations with Iran, another country who doesn't recognize the Armenian genocide either....
"We do know that Israel was supplying the Azerbaijani army with logistical support during the Karabagh war"
We do know that Israel was on the Azerbaijani side during the Karabagh war.
We also know that the war "left 30,000 dead and 800,000 refugees, almost all of them Azeris".
We also know that Azerbaijan has always been Israel-friendly, organizing among other things Israeli cultural festivals, which Armenia wouldn't do.
Georgia and Iran, who actually share a border with Armenia, to recognize the Armenian genocide?
We do know that Israel has embassies open in Ankara and Baku and not in Armenia. Right?
Right. We also know that Armenia doesn't have an embassy in Israel, even though there's plenty of Armenians living in Israel. (More than Israelis - or Jews - living in Armenia.)
We also know that Israel has an Armenian ambassador, in Georgia, and the Armenian ambassador of Israel is in France.
"We do know that the Zionist state of Israel is very unhappy with Armenia’s cordial relations with Iran. Right?"
I doubt they are "very unhappy" about that.
What we do know is that the Nationalist state of Armenia has cordial relations with the Muslim dictatorship of Iran, that refuses to recognize the state of Israel, AND we know Iran refuses to recognize the Armenian genocide...
"We do know that Israel has active military and economic ties with Turkey. Right?"
Probably. Armenia has active military and economic ties with Iran.
"And finally, we definitely know what Turkey thinks of Armenia. Don’t We?"
Even that can be discussed. We know that Turkey has recognized Armenia, and that is more than can be said about Iran and Israel. Nevertheless you consider your friendship with Israel's enemy to be nothing to think about, while you seem to think Israel's "friendship" with Turkey, your enemy, to be condemning evidence of Jewish and Zionist influence in the Armenian genocide. What a hypocrite you are :-D
"What else does the State of Israel have to do, short of bombing Yerevan, to show you that it has policies that are hostile to Armenia?"
Frankly, Armenia has shown more hostility to Israel by befriending its enemies, than Israel has shown toward Armenia or Armenians. The day Israel does bomb Yerevan - without Armenians attacking Israel first - I'll believe you. Not before.
"Whether Zionists conspire against Armenia for their malicious self-serving interests or because of the interest of their best friends in Ankara, or a mixture of both, that end-results are the same. Armenia cannot fit the geo-political formulas, security interests and grandiose agendas of Zionists and Turks."
So - when the Jewish people expresses it's right to self-determination through Zionism it's malicious, but when the Armenian people do the same, it's not? And how is one more self-serving than the other? And WHY would ANY people be serving anyone else but themselves?
Turks are not Israel's "best friends". They keep polite relations mostly because both depend on USA.
Both Turkey and Israel have recognized Armenia, so it's pretty obvious to everyone but an egocentric nationalist that Armenia fits the "geo-political formulas, security interests and grandiose agendas of Zionists and Turks".
Also, it is pretty clear that the "grandiose agendas of Zionists and Turks" are not so grandiose as you seem to believe. Both seem to be quite happy with the nation state they now control. Turks are not trying to take over Armenia, Israel isn't trying to get the land from "Eufrat to Nile", just what was promised to them by Brits in WWI.
"Also relevant for this context is the role Islamic Republic of Iran plays, albeit, indirectly. Iran today is the only stable and viable neighbor Armenia has. Iran’s foreign policies have been very favorable to Armenia and hostile to Turkey and Azerbaijan. Iran is also a nation that Zionists fear most.."
LOL Sure. Are you aware of the more than cordial relations of Iran and Turkey?
"Turkey is close to Israel and against Iran and Armenia."
Against Iran? You are following wrong papers, if that's what you believe.
"Do you see that Zionists do not have to be directly hostile to Armenia in order to severely undermine Armenia’s sovereignty?"
If Armenia's sovereignty is that feeble, perhaps you shouldn't be independent. Get some spine, Jerm!
1917 Finland became independent after having been occupied by Russia for 100 years. 20 years later Soviet attacked Finland, trying to "get us back". We begged for help from Sweden, England, USA, everywhere, and only Germans were ready to help, so we accepted their offer. After years of fighting, the Russians finally accepted a peace treaty, and we lost an arm - literally - if you look at the Finnish map before WWII, you see it looks like a lady in long skirts holding two arms upwards - one of the arms was Petsamo - and a leg. But we kept our sovereignty. We had to accept unfair deals, but we kept our sovereignty. We had to swallow a lot of pride, but we kept our sovereignty. We have been independent and sovereign since 1917, and OUR enemy was RUSSIA: If we can get and keep independency, so can anyone.
So don't you come here whining about Turks, and base antisemitic conspiracy theories on diplomatic relations of Israel.
"In closing, I have to say that yours question is vague in nature, very rhetorical and extremely subjective."
The question was “can you prove, unequivocally, that Zionists are, or ever have, conspired against Armenians”
It's not more vague, rhetorical or subjective than the claim that Zionist conspire against Armenians. I think it's just fair to ask. Besides, having discussed with antisemites who like to call themselves antizionists as if that would make them less antisemitic, I know that that's just an effort to avoid answering the question.
The only fair, correct and factual answer to this question is "no". Nor you, or anyone, can prove that Zionists conspire against Armenians, or have ever done so.
"Your question is also a technique used by apologists worldwide, whether Nazi, Turkish or Zionist (all three are ideologically off-springs of the same beast)."
The technique used by apologists worldwide... Not really. Your answer, on the other hand, is a fine example of an answer given by apologists worldwide.
You're right in that National Socialists of Germany, Ottoman Turks and Zionists all share the ideology. It's called NATIONALISM. The idea that the nation one belongs to is somehow different than any other nation, and has the right of self-determination through a nation state.
It is the exact same idea that made Armenians think they cannot be Turks nor Russians, but must be Armenians.
Don't you try to get on your high horses and pretend to be any better.
Also, don't try to tell me there are no supernationalist Armenians, who dream of Greater Armenia, where all the areas on the map that has ever been Armenian should be Armenian again, because THAT is a FACT. Armenians are not better or worse than any other nation in the world, and as every other nation has their share of Nazis dreaming of a Greater what-ever-nation-they-represent, so does the Armenians.
Does that make all the Armenians bad? Or all nationalist Armenians? No.
I am a Finnish nationalist. I am proud of my Finnish identity and my Finnish homeland with its Finnish language and Finnish flag. Why would I find that bad?
The same way Zionism as an ideology is in no way bad, as the core of Zionism is a Jewish homeland, preferably in the same place where it has always been, that is, in Israel. I don't deny there are Zionist nazis dreaming of the Greater Israel - that would be idiotic - but this fact doesn't make all Zionists nazis. If you believe that, you believe that the Jews are a nation different - and worse - from all the other nations... and that, my dear, is antisemitism.
In fact, I'm a Zionist in that I believe the Jews to be a nation - by ethnicity and culture - and they too have the right of self-determination, and I also believe the Jewish nation state cannot be anywhere else but in Judea, where they come from.
"Why are you so adamant in disproving Jewish (Zionist) antagonisms against Armenia and Armenians?"
I could ask you the same? What do you get by claiming the Jews hate Armenians?
Frankly, all it does is to make the Turks unwilling victims of the evil Jews, innocent to the Armenian genocide...After all, it wasn't THEM who did it, just as little as it was the Christian Lebanese who massacred Sabra and Shatila, it was THE JEWS.
And don't you see how antisemitic it is to blame Jews for all the evil in the world? Do you really think the world would be a better place if there never were any Jews in it? Really?
"Is not the writing on the wall clear enough for you?"
Of course it is. But "clear" doesn't mean "true". You seem to have serious difficulties in separating these concepts. You seem to think propaganda must be more true than neutral news reporting, because the latter leaves the conclusions and thinking to you, while the former is clear as a whistle.
"Why do you seek proof of a kind that can’t be provided, due to its very nature, unless, you have another agenda? Which, I would hate to think."
"by its very nature"... Yes,
lies, propaganda, prejudices and conspiracy theories are practically impossible to prove.
And why do you think things that are hateful for you to think? You are fully convinced this Sassoon, Sion or what ever this person's name is, is just another Zionist troll.
"the collective mentality of traditional Jewish culture is very xenophobic and chauvinistic "
Not really. You seem to make the same mistake as so many other non-Jews.
First, get into your head that what is commonly called "the Old Testament" is THE JEWISH NATIONAL EPOS. It isn't a collection of international, universal truths, or testimony of The One God of All Nations, it's JEWISH and shouldn't have any significance for any other people in this world.
Just like any other people's national epos, the Jewish national epos is filled with THEIR stories told from THEIR point of view, stating that THEY are special people.
Kalevala is filled with OUR stories told from OUR point of view, stating how special people WE are.
I don't know what the Armenian national epos is - or if you have any - but the French national epos is full of THEIR stories told from THEIR point of view stating how special and God chosen people THEY are.
Greek national epos is the same way, and so is Roman. Why do you expect the Jewish national epos to be any different?
Just because the JEWISH God chose the JEWISH people, doesn't mean they have been chosen by The One God of every nation.
We all have been chosen by our own God. Why would you have to be somehow approved by a God of a nation you don't belong to? Believe me, the Christians and Muslims got it wrong, when they started claiming there is only One God, and that is the God of the Jews. The Greeks and Arabs had plenty of Gods of their own, who had chosen them over all the other peoples of the world, but they chose to deny these Gods and start chasing the appoval of another nation's God, as if this God was somehow better than their own God.
The "collective mentality" (what an interesting way to say that...) of "traditional Jewish culture" is egocentric, focused on themselves, JUST LIKE WITH EVERY OTHER PEOPLE. EVERY people's culture is focused on themselves, separating them from every other people on this planet, in one way or another. Finnish culture is not Russian nor Swedish, even though it has traces of both.
Armenian culture is not Turkish nor Azeri. Why do you expect the Jewish culture to be anything but Jewish?
Xenophobia is "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange". The "collective mentality of traditional Jewish culture" is what produced a law - A LAW, Jerm -
“Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt."
People representing other religions were allowed to live in Israel and worship their own Gods the way they wanted, as long as they didn't built temples or in other ways tried to convert Jews away from their God and ways. Men were forbidden to marry women from other peoples, because men tend to follow their wives in religious practices. Nevertheless, Moses was married to a non-Jew and King David's great-grandmother was a convert. King Solomon was told to have had hundreds of wives of whom most were foreigners. Even his successor's mother was a foreigner. How xenophobic is that?
Chauvinism is "biased devotion to any group, attitude, or cause", "zealous and aggressive", "blind enthusiasm"...
So the Jews were biased about God? You can bet they were, and still are. Aren't you? Even if your God is no-god.
Or were they "biased" about their nationality? As in - they refused to be anything but Jews? Don't you?
I know I am very "biased" about my God and my nationality. I wouldn't change either for anything in this world or beyond. I'm very proud of being Finnish, and very proud of Finland, even though there are some aspects of being Finnish I'm not very happy about, and some things Finland does and has done, I'm not very proud of. That's not Chauvinism. I don't think EVERYONE should be Finnish, or that I'm a better person than everyone else, simply because I happened to be born in Finland. Most Jews don't think they are better than everyone else because they are Jewish. That YOU seem to believe they do, doesn't make it so.
Jews are like any other people on this planet, and if you cannot understand, acknowledge and accept that FACT, you are a biased idiot.
"Knowing the above dose not make me a Jew hater."
Er... "Knowing" something that isn't true? No, it doesn't make you a Jew hater, it makes you a gullible person who really should learn how to verify information. If you believe that to be a fact, what else will you believe?
"Zionism, however, is an ideological/political movement drenched with racism, hate and expansionism."
No, it's not. It has got that reputation among some people, given to it by antisemites. That doesn't make all the people who believe that antisemites, but they sure are repeating antisemitic propaganda.
Zionism is Jewish nationalism. Some nationalist are fundamentalist extremists, who are so filled with racism, hate and chauvinism, that they drench everything they touch with that filth as well, just like the German fundametalist National Socialists tainted the swastika so badly it still is a symbol of chauvinism and xenophobia.
Zionism is basically just support of the existence of the Jewish nation state of Israel, nothing else.
"I have no idea what percent of world Jewry is considered Zionists. That does not even matter to me."
... but you have no scruples in using the words interchangeably. "Jewish (Zionist)".
"What matters is that the Israeli state was founded by Zionists and is still being run by them."
And Armenian state was founded by Armenian nationalists and is still being run by them. Why does it matter? How does it matter? In no way, unless you, my dear, are an antisemite without even being aware of it.
Why would Jewish nationalism be in any way worse than Armenian nationalism or any other form of nationalism? It is only if you think the Jews are different from all the other nations of the world, and somehow worse, that you think the Jewish nationalism also is different and worse than others - and that, my dear, is antisemitism.
"You are right let’s stop this discussion about Jews and whether or not we can be ‘buddy buddy’ with them. The aforementioned will be my last word regarding the matter whether you have any replies or not."
Er... I assume you are not Jewish, so what the heck are you even pretending to be discussing them? And if you really didn't think Zionist and Jew are the same, why are you suggesting you STOP discussing Jews? Why did you start in the first place? Leave the Jews out of the discussion. Frankly, I don't see you blaming the Kurds of the Armenian genocide, even though many members of Young Turks were Kurdish - WHICH CAN BE PROVEN.
So end of discussion, which didn't even start. You never answered the question, which YOU claimed was IMPORTANT and should be shared with everyone. What ever.
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I suppose he finds his "facts" from sites like these ones:
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=95
a) Dönmeh are Muslims, not Jews, like "Messianic Jews" are not Jews but Christians. They should be ethnically Jewish, though, as the Dönme used to marry within the families, and they have kept the Jewish habits, just like the Messianic Christians.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was Dönme.
b) Young Turks didn't consist of Jews only, even though there were Jewish members.
The Committee of Union and Progress was established 1889 by university students
- Ibrahim Starova (or Temo or Ethem) - an Albanian, not Jewish
- Abdullah Cevdet - a Kurd, not Jewish
- İshak Sükuti - a Kurd, not Jewish
- Hüseyinzade Ali - born in Russia, ethnicity unknown, but the name doesn't look Jewish to me.
not by "a political group from the Dönmeh".
THIS is a verifyiable fact.
Emanuel Carasso (Carrusso, Qrasow or how you choose to write his name" was never the "head of the organisation".
Revolting against a dictator and forcing him into submission is by no means anything negative. Everyone knows that today's Turks are very proud of Young Turks and give them the credit of the existence of Turkey. Nevertheless, one cannot give this credit to the Jews, because Young Turks were not only Jews.
There are no facts supporting the idea that "the Jewish Young Turks" - or the Jews or Young Turks have anything to do with Young Bosnia and the murder of archduke Ferdinand. Nevertheless, I refer to the earlier point and the fact that Bosnia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. In my mind the people's right to self-determination is a right to be respected, and where it is not, bad things happen, which the history has shown time after time.
This is also a verifyiable FACT, not just a theory.
This conspiracy is based on a book written 1929 by a pro-Sultan Turk, and former member of the Committee of Union and Progress, Mevlan Zadeh Rifat, "Inner Folds of the Ottoman Revolution".
There is no other information to support the claim presented in the book, but there is plenty of information; documents, letters, journal entries, newspapers, etc. that confirm the genocide of Armenians.
Lenin was not Jewish. His grandfather was born Jewish, but converted before he was born, married a non-Jewish woman, and their daughter married a non-Jew.
The origin of the great fire of Smyrna was never satisfactorily explained. Any suggestion is just speculations, not facts.
Also, the estimates of casualties (which are just that) differ from 10.000 to 100.000. To claim that
"100,000 Christians tortured, starved, raped, and dead " is sensationalist propaganda, and not to be believed as facts.
Also, one must note that the Armenians and Greeks were forced by the fire to a narrow waterfront, and
it took two weeks for the Greeks to arrive to rescue their countrymen and fellow Christians... you know, 300 km from Athens... Also, only a Japanese ship helped the people crammed on the waterfront. The harbor was full of ships, and every other one claimed "neutrality"...
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/armeniangenocide.html
"A 1994 conference paper/lecture by Joseph Brewda of Schiller Institute entitled Palmerson launches Young Turks to permanently control Middle East claims the founder of the Young Turks to be a certain Jew by the name of Emmanuel Carasso."
Who is Joseph Brewda?
What I can see of him is different articles, that smell antisemitic. I would have to read them to find out, but The Schiller Institute has been accused of spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories as well.
I would need to find out more about Joseph Brewda and read his speech to be able to decide.
Nevertheless, this information makes anything Joseph Brewda says questionable. (That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, but
it must be double-checked and verified before it can be repeated as facts.)
Vladimir Ze'ev Jabotinsky was a Russian Zionist. He became that after having survived yet another Pogrom. He started the Jewish Self-Defense Organization and helped form the Jewish Legion of the British Army, thus helping the Jews to earn their homeland. He was very good with words, and it was natural he would write become a journalist and an editor of a newspaper. In fact, he wrote for many papers. And...?
Zionism is about a Jewish homeland in Israel. There is nothing in Zionism that could be used to motivate talking the Turks to attack anyone, but the governing authority, which refused to allow the Jews to return to Israel.
"In the 1880's, the French branch of the Rothschild family acquired interests in Russia's Baku oil fields in an effort to supply their refinery on the Adriatic with cheap Russian oil. In exchange for these interests they built a railroad linking Baku to the newly acquired Black Sea port of Batum. This opened up the Baku oil, a major world supply, to the world. With the success of the new railroad, the Rothschilds had more oil than they could actually sell. Overcoming their fear of competing with the giant Standard oil [of USA], they sought out the huge [Far East] markets east of Suez. "
Oh, the wicked Jews, built a railroad and created competition to an oil giant! How dare they!
(Especially funny, considering that the same people claiming this also claim the Jews own all the other oil companies...)
Now, tell me, how were the Armenians a problem for this at the time very sensible use of money?
"the principal disruption was due to the violence of the ethnic conflict between the region's Muslims and the minority population of Armenians who are Christians"
Oh, the CONFLICT BETWEEN these two groups... the same conflict you claim the Jews created supported by Rotchild?
Let's look at the Baku oil line (Baku, BTW, is by the Caspian sea, which is not even mentioned when talking about the Armenian genocide.
The red line is the baku oil line going through Turkey. The big red spots are the centers of deportation, the big black spot is where they collected people to start marching them into Syrian deserts. As you can see, they were collecting Armenians from West Turkey as well, and they were being deported into Syria... why not just clean the pipeline?
"How would I know how some Zionist nazis think?"
All the people think the same way. If you cannot find any reason to why one would need to transport ALL the Armenians fully out of Turkey, that would benefit the Jews, Zionists, Rotchilds or any other people associated in any way with the Jews, then there are no reasons. I'm sorry, but the conflict between the Turks and the Armenians that distrupt the building of the oil line, is not reason enough. Were the Armenians sabotaging the oil line? The turks were not, because it brought money to Turkey. The Jews were not, because it brought money to them, according to you. So in what way would the conflict disturb the oil line?
No. This theory doesn't hold.
As if any conspiracy theorist would ever think...
